Talking men’s health, diagnosis and the journey of living with MS

MS Plus acknowledges the traditional custodians of the land this podcast is recorded on, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to their elders past and present.

This is a trigger warning. In today's episode, we're discussing two men's experience of diagnosis and the impact on their lives and mental health, and we briefly discuss suicidal ideation. If you are not in the right place to listen to this topic, please skip from 7 minutes to 8 minutes 40 of the episode. Please take care of yourself, and if you are in need of any assistance, please reach out to the people around you, your GP, or supports such as Lifeline, by calling 13 11 14.

Jess: Hi, and welcome to the MS podcast series. My name is Jess, and in recognition of Men's Health Week, I'm lucky to be speaking with David and Andrew today, who are two men who are living with MS. So, thank you both for being willing to have a chat today about, you know, your experience, men's health, and just life with MS in general.

So, thank you both for joining me. So, I was wondering if you could both maybe tell me a little bit about yourselves and your experience and what that has sort of been like.

David: Yeah, my name's David. I've been living with MS about five years now from the categoric diagnosis.

Original symptoms I sort of noticed were back in 2016 and it was just some numbness in the toe, and I thought it was a circulation issue. So, I went to the doctor just to get that checked out. Yeah, and I got referred to just go see a neuro just in case and recommend that I get a, MRI and so I didn't have a great experience. First off, I went to sort of like a local neuro and they said you've got to do an MRI but didn't get back to me and things. And then started to do a bit of research and decided to look who was sort of the best in the field and found a professor in Melbourne that had studied a lot with MS and does neurology sort of on the side, privately so it went to him and we got not a diagnosis at that stage, it was a couple of lesions and because it was the first time they said they couldn't really diagnose it as MS, but we kept an eye on it. And then about three years later, finally categorically become MS and I've been dealing with it since. Had good stability for a while up until just recently probably a month or so ago. I went for my normal checkup six months and there was new activity. So that was the first new activity in five years. And yeah, so since then started some new meds this week, actually and seeing how that goes. But the signs were sort of there where fatigue was sort of kicking in, and I was getting a lot of numbness down my right side, and they've become more profound in the last probably three or four months.

So, I think psychologically, I thought it's been stable, so I should be right now. And so, it was a little bit of a shock to get the new diagnosis. But yeah, so sort of when I heard that from the neurologist, I sort of just went in, okay, what do we need to do to sort that out? And what does it mean? And sort of just went into practical mode. So, I think it's sort of how my mindset is.

Jess: And so, for you, Andrew, what was your experience getting diagnosed? Was it similar to David that, it took some time, or did it happen quite quickly for you?

Andrew: Looking back, I probably need to say this before going back, but I was living in Queensland in 1993 and similar to David, I remember waking up one day and I had the pins and needles feeling in my feet. But I was training with football, it didn't prevent me from doing anything. I just sort of thought I'd slept indifferently and that it would go away after a couple of days. That sensation sort of grew up to my chest over the week. And that's when I thought, well, okay, this is not quite right, I need to go and investigate what it is. So, I went and saw a GP who referred me onto a neurologist at one of the hospitals in Brisbane.

I was actually diagnosed after spending a night in the spinal ward. I had a CAT scan and a lumbar puncture. I was diagnosed with myelitis. Now, at the time, it could have been the onset of MS, but the neurologist was actually saying that it was probably more stress related, because I'd moved from Victoria, I don't think I had a job at the time, so it probably made sense.

I moved back to Victoria in late 1995 and on New Year's Day 1996 I woke up and I had pretty much all the symptoms that you can experience for a person with MS. And because of my experience in Queensland, it made sense that I had MS, so I had to go and see a GP and it was a funny experience actually. I actually ended up going to a GP and said look, I need you to let me know who your neurologist you refer to people is, cause I need to go and get my MS diagnosed. And he was actually quite taken aback by that. And that's how it eventuated. I went to see the neurologist, yeah, had the MRI and demyelination was confirmed.

Jess: So, Andrew, so when you went in to see your GP, you suspected you had MS before they sort of confirmed it. Is that right?

Andrew: Yes, that is correct.

Jess: Yes. And what about you, David, when they were sort of going through and looking at things, like when did you start thinking maybe this is MS?

David: I think for me, even when I got a few lesions in my brain thinking, okay, this is, it's probably nothing and like everything I sort of downplay a lot of things. I'll be right, it's just something I've got to live with and it probably won't be anything and I think when it categorically got labelled MS, that sort of changed my mindset totally. And so getting that diagnosis, I think it was still like, oh, it's nothing, I'll be able to live with it, just push through like everything I've sort of done.

Sort of growing up, there was no such thing as mental health in my family. It was like, unless you're bleeding, cut and even then, you just put a bandage on and you'd be right to go. So, it was always a thing for men that, you know, you're tough, you just push through and I think I had that mindset and things just got worse and worse for me mentally. And even with the diagnosis, my practical side, okay, I'll take some medication, I'll be right. And slowly, slowly, there was things coming to the fore with you know, how I was handling it mentally.

And yeah, so sort of looking back, some of the symptoms like Andrew, I was sort of playing footy at the time when I was younger, and I'd always have issues with my ankle where there was a lot of pain and things. But did structural x rays and things, there was no damage. Looked at it through ultrasound, there was no damage, so it couldn't be explained. It was just, I had this issue and around the same time, sort of mentally sort of had a little bit of depression and things sort of creeping in where I wasn't realising, and it was sort of getting to a stage sort of after that I had my son and that was sort of a hard time transitioning. To looking after someone else and I think when you have a child too, it sort of brings up issues from your childhood and brings that to the fore, so I was noticing I was sort of distancing myself. I was got to a stage where, you know, I'd been the one sort of chasing our friends. And then when I stopped doing that, and it’s sort of, no one was sort of chasing me up and seeing how it was. It sort of then leads you down a path where, you know, you start to think the worst, like I didn't mean anything to anybody, and you start to get sort of depressed on that. And this sort of just started to snowball on and it probably got to a stage where it was at its worst right around the diagnosis side. And I just remember that it got to a stage where I was sort of arguing with my wife and everything was sort of an issue for me.

And there was, the darkest time was probably it was her birthday, I sort of struggled with events like that and it's probably because growing up, we always have these birthdays and things, and it seemed to be like this big celebration, but behind the scenes you know, extended family and all that were put on the front for these birthdays. Behind the scenes, they're sort of talking about each other beyond their backs. And so, it sort of got to a stage where it wasn't, it didn't feel anything to me. And because it was her birthday, it sort of, it felt like, oh, this is just another front you got to put on and I remember probably worse was driving back and yeah, I was just thinking that it was so bad I'm just going to drive the car into a pole and I don't know what sort of happened but I think I, I thought about my son and how sort of selfish I would be and yeah.

Jess: Oh wow, thank you so much, David, for sharing such a personal experience. And, you know, it really takes a lot of courage to open up and I would encourage anyone who is listening and, you know, if that experience resonates with them to please reach out and talk to your family, you know, your friends, your partner, or your GP, because people care, and they really do want to help.

So just know, you know, that you're not alone.

And so, looking back on this time in your life now, and you know, being in a better place, how did you end up turning things around?

David: Yeah, so then I sort of started to change my mindset. I've been working full time and at that stage things at work were changing and it wasn't the environment that was great anymore. There's a lot of stress and I sort of decided well, I've got to look at priorities.

So, this was just as COVID was starting to arrive. In the middle of COVID, I just decided, well, I'm not working anymore. And financially that took a hit, but I think it was the best thing that I did. And timing wasn't the best, but I think from the changes that I had to make and then start to look after myself and then sort of, lucky enough, the NDIS sort of kicked in, in September of 2020. And that gave me sort of a bit more purpose. You know, I can do these therapies and get a bit more structure in my day. And then at the start of 2021, went back to work part-time and now working at a place where I really enjoy and great people. And that's sort of all those changes that I've made. And I should say with the depression side of things I'd see a therapist every week and discuss those things. And I think that's been helpful. And I think talking about men's health and things there is a hang up in the past about, you know, mental health and just pushing through. But I'm actually finding it beneficial, but there are still times that those old ideas kick in, and I shouldn't feel like this, and I should be able to push through because, you know, I'm a man type thing, and that's the way I was raised.

Jess: Yeah, right. That sounds like you went through quite a journey and it's so good that you're able to link in with a mental health professional, throughout all of that. And, you know, you're so right. Those stigmas around men's mental health can be so damaging and it's still so ingrained to this day for people.

And I think that's why taking this time out to talk about men's health and mental health is so important. And so, thinking back to your diagnosis and for both of you, because we know that MS is diagnosed far more commonly in women than men, did you feel aware of this when you were being diagnosed?

So, did you feel a bit more isolated being diagnosed with MS? You know, being men, looking back, what was your experience with that?

David: Yeah, for me I don't know. I didn't think about it too much. I think I went to practical mode of what I need to do. But in saying that, there was some feeling isolated and a lot of that I sort of put on myself, I think, because of how I reacted to things. And it's only since being aware of how you know, I've reacted to things and changing the way I deal with it that I've been able to make changes and recognize those things. Not saying that I'm perfect in any way but yeah, trying to do that.

Jess: And what about you, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, look, I can't recall, I can't recall sort of thinking about the gender difference and things like that. But I do remember when I was diagnosed, like there was no bravado on my point of view. There was, periods of adjustment, but I didn't know what I was adjusting. You're sort of, you know, you're trying to get used to that new me, but again, you don't know what you don't know. And I like to sort of communicate with people like at my work and things like that, I was telling them about this diagnosis, but I really didn't know what it meant. It's just like hey, I've got this. You know reading a lot of the literature and so forth.

My neurologist who did the diagnosis actually said look, there's probably not much more I can do for you at this point in time. So, getting contact with the MS society, which was in Camberwell at the time, which I did. And I was able to get a whole bunch of information about what the next few weeks or months or years might look like. So, you know I sort of read up on that information, but still it was a whole new learning phase. And what I do recall is that disclosing it to people, still, what was that going to mean?

I certainly wasn't thinking of things like discrimination or anything like that, but what are people going to do with this information? How might they use that against me? But I guess at the same time, this is my biggest concern is how does it affect me?

What are the things that I need to do for myself?

Jess: No, definitely. And it's interesting David, hearing you talk about those really old school values of men are tough, men don't have emotions, that whole boys don't cry thing and sort of just push on and she'll be right. They're still, you know, it's not as much, but I think they're still prevalent today.

Did you both feel, or thinking back, did you feel that pressure to sort of appear better than you were doing or that you were feeling societal sort of pressure to appear well, and that you were coping and managing this diagnosis because it's that whole thing of not letting people see how it's sort of impacting you, especially on your mental health.

David: Yeah, I think for me from initial MRI and going for another job, I sort of mentioned that I could potentially have MS in the future, and it was a worry that would be, like Andrew said, used against you or yeah, like you'd be labelled as something. But I think even going further is with MS it's totally different for everybody, different experiences and I know there's times like I've got a disability pass for parking and all that and you're sort of driving there, you're not feeling the best and you park but you feel like there's a shame over you because you're walking. It's an invisible disability and you sort of feel like, oh, people are going to judge me for parking there or whatever, I'm sort of taking advantage of it or something like that. And there is that mindset that's still there and it's about how society perceive you. Yeah, so that's sort of hard to deal with sometimes and sometimes have to think selfishly, well this is what's best for me and enables me to keep going.

Jess: Yeah, prioritising yourself. Absolutely. And what about you, Andrew?

Andrew: Very similar to David. I mean there, you know, in society these days there's still those traditional male roles aren't there. And I think as you know, the questions that you're asking, we still need to be seen as the breadwinner and you know, the strong person for the family or things like that. But no, I agree I think, the period of adjustment that I went through even having conversations with friends or, you know, people that you considered friends and you're getting the, oh, you look okay. And you know, it doesn't appear to be anything wrong with you and things like that. And you just, know, especially when you're going through those times when you are experiencing some of the symptoms and you're just sort of thinking to yourself, geez, I'd love to swap shoes with you for a day or a week or something like that. So that you could get an idea of some of the things that I actually do have to confront and experience and stuff like that.

Similar to what David was saying, I was lucky enough to get a disabled sticker early on at which I still have to this day. And even though I've had the condition for a long period of time, like you're still not here doing somersaults, do you know what I mean? There are things that you need to confront every day and even though my journey has probably been reasonably stable yeah, it's not easy. I can't say that you're ever confident that you're ahead of it. And I think David's alluded to it as well, I think you'll certainly have periods of stability and periods of good management, but I'm not all that sure that you can be confident, and I'm not saying this with any negative connotation, I'm not all that sure that you could confidently feel that you're ahead of it.

Jess: Yeah, it's so unpredictable. Like, you can be doing all the things to help maintain your health, you know, medication, exercise, healthy eating, but at the end of the day, it still is a very unknown condition, which makes it really hard to cope with.

Did you find that that was particularly challenging for either of you, that the fact that no one can say in one year, this is what it will look like, or in five years, like dealing with that uncertainty?

David: Yeah, for me it was the uncertainties is the hard part and reassessing things. And so, like Andrew was talking from being the breadwinner to sort of changing the mindset where I'm only working part-time and that puts extra pressure on my partner. And she's had to take up a lot of the slack. And I think we're talking about men's health, but from the pressure puts on the rest of the family as well. You know, from my wife's side she needs to work a bit more and then look after me at times and look after the house. But then also from my son’s point of view, I feel at times like he misses out like I don't have the energy to go kick the footy with him for a long period of time. Sometimes I sort of feel like I've sort of let him down because I haven't done that with him. And I think the pressure that it puts on the family and what they have to go through sort of unrecognized, I think sometimes.

And I think with MS, MS plus and MS employment, that's been really helpful. We were lucky enough to get invited to the MS camp this year. I met some other families, and we met a family that we've stayed in touch with and become good friends, which has been good. But one of the things they did there was, like Andrew was saying, I wish you could put someone in our shoes. They went through some of the symptoms and physically putting things in shoes and all that to get a gauge of what it could feel like. But like we've said, it's all different for different people. So, it is an unknown experience. And going forward, it's sort of like you got to deal with what comes ahead and how you handle that. And I think that's where going back to the mental health side of it is important, that you talk about it and you go through the process of acknowledging what things are and it's sort of, it is what it is, but what does that mean? And how does that impact you and your family?

Jess: Yeah, yeah. And it's, hearing you talking about your son and the impact on your family, it just reminds me of the many men that I've spoken with and them having very, very similar concerns. And sounds like you put a lot of pressure on yourself to being concerned about your family and the impact it's having and being able to access things like Family Camp and, you know, being able to take your time away with your family is fantastic.

Andrew, when you were diagnosed, had you had a family at this point? Did they grow up only knowing you with MS, I guess is what I'm saying?

Andrew: That is correct. And if I can again further what David was saying that I think it's the pressure that you put on yourself because you've got a lot of apathy in this society. Like even my dear mum, I mean, she was in denial for a long period of time. Friends saying to you, you look okay, yeah as David said and I'd often go out to the road and kick with my son. The daughters that often come out, but you're only doing it for limited amount of time, whether it was in the heat or in the cooler months. So, you end up actually putting a lot of pressure on yourself which is internalized via, you know, the fatigue symptoms the fact that you don't want to extend yourself too much because you know what the next couple of hours is going to look like.

But then as David was alluding to the, it's the mental health of how others see you. So, you need people to champion for you, do you know what I mean? You need those champions in your life that are going to be there to support you and to listen to you and be that real voice for you as well, especially when you need it, when you need it yourself. If you can't be that person for yourself. Because I mean, I'm sure David's the same, we certainly, we build up a certain amount of resilience which is really important to have. But, yeah, you still need, you need, you absolutely need that support in your life.

David: I think, yeah, that's true with the support and unfortunately, like, there's come a time where you identify which people are good to be around and which aren't.

Andrew: Yes

David: But recently go through that and I've sort of come to a stage where I don't need sort of people like that in my life. And because the stressor that it puts on you, you notice the symptoms, you know, increasing around that time when you have stress, your body just picks it all up and like Andrew said, you've got to sort of listen to your body and understand it.

And I think sort of the message for men is that, going to the doctor is not a bad thing. If your body doesn't feel right, if there's something not right, go get it checked out. Because we're lucky in Australia that with the Medicare system and things, it's not that expensive. And you've got the opportunity to get things checked out and go to specialists and you've sort of got to champion for yourself and push that aspect. But from a point of view, you get all that sorted out, then you're better for yourself and your whole family.

Jess: Yeah, absolutely and the research says that men in general, just the general population of men will often leave health symptoms and things a lot longer than women do. And they take a lot longer to actually get in to see the doctor and they downplay things. And so, this is why we might see men having, you know, more severe diseases or, impacts of disease because it's been left longer.

Do you think that was a factor for either of you, maybe in the initial days when you were going through that diagnosis, or was it almost a bit of, I was hearing, things were sort of being played off or, tipped to be something else, you know, you twisted your ankle at footy, or you just young men who have busy lives. Did you feel heard by the GPs when you were going in and seeing them way back in the very first, appointments?

Andrew: I remember when I went and saw the GP and I was talking about the symptoms that I was experiencing so this was 1993. He looked across at me from his desk and he said, well it certainly sounds like MS. Now, don't get me wrong. I certainly wasn't an expert on MS. I'd heard about it. I didn't know a great deal about it, and it certainly set me back. I didn't know what it meant. So obviously going off to the neurologist and getting the various tests and so forth. Even then, I can't necessarily recall what the neurologist said. Basically, he was said it was stress related, yeah, just go home and don't think about it too much and things like that, so. And look, funnily enough, that seemed to work. Again, it wasn't until three years later that all the symptoms came back. And then obviously I knew that I had to do something about it, but it's really hard because my recollection, my experience was that even those professionals at the time didn't really know much. Or sorry, that was my perception that even though I went through that medical process, I was still left with not many answers.

Was that frustrating? Was it isolating? Look, I'll have to say yes, because you've got this dark cloud hanging over you. So even though, I'd left the hospital and I'd left the care of the neurologist and the symptoms seemed to disappear, there was still this, ok, well, what if it comes back? What do I do then? If the neurologist has given me a essentially a clean bill of health, what are the next steps, who are the next people to go to? So yeah.

David: Yeah. And I think for me, it was sort of 20 years after Andrew, and I think a lot of research had been done into MS. And looking at just recently going through and trying to decide which medications are best. They had a timeline of when medications were introduced, and it was only sort of the mid 1990s that an effective sort of medication was available. And just since then, the number of different medications that have come through and there's always research into it.

And I think previous to this, my knowledge of MS was sort of the MS Readathon that we did as kids. It's sort of funny, I'd always, you sort of get donated per book you read, so back then I'd pick the smallest books and try and read as many books as possible to get a lot of money in for the funding, but it's ironic that it's sort of come back to help me now and yeah, so has been a big change there from my experience of going to the doctor or whatever.

I think I've been seeing my doctor from before my son was born and she probably noticed some changes in me with how I was feeling mentally and I think when I sort of mentioned to her that the numb toe or that she took it seriously and put me through referrals and all that. But finding the right neurologist was sort of the key and I think a key aspect for handling or managing MS is get the right people in place and that can help you and get what works for you best.

I've got a good team around me, and MS is about having the right team around you that can help you out. Even though I'm the one with MS, it's sort of a bigger team and bigger people dealing with it than just myself.

Jess: Mm hmm. Absolutely. And I think it's so great, you know, it sounds like that you went through some really dark times, with the impact on your mental health and things like that. And it sounds like, you've come out the other side of it, which is great.

But was it hard or do you still find it hard to talk to your health professionals or even, you know your partner and your family that you choose to speak to, about your mental health? Like, was that a difficult first step, bringing it up?

David: Yeah, I'm, sort of funny. I can, I can talk to a stranger about my mental health more than I can talk to people that I know. And I know, I think it's a preconception or the previous experiences that I've had with people that I know have created that environment for me where there's not that trust.

Jess: It's not safe.

David: To divulge something. And yeah, it's not safe where in an environment like a lot of my team are sort of younger and there's no preconception that mental health is this taboo thing where you don't talk about, and you sort of open up to them a bit more than older people or whatever.

Yeah, it all comes down to the environment that you're in and if you feel safe in that environment and talking to people.

Jess: Absolutely. And what about you, Andrew? Did you ever have difficulty talking about that? Like, did it feel like it was a hard conversation to have?

Andrew: At times, yes. Again, similar to what David's saying, I can, sometimes talk the legs off chairs and in a public space, for some reason, it seems to be a lot easier. Maybe because these people don't know you, you're probably not necessarily caring what the feedback might be or things like that. But yeah, for those people that really do care for you and love you and support you, I have found over the time that it's not easy to communicate these feelings because maybe I don't want to put those concerns onto them.

Maybe there's an internal fight within yourself that it's like, you know what? I do speak to my GP. I do speak to my neuro. I can, handle this myself. I don't need to bring other people into this. But obviously we know now that if you open up those avenues and if you open up those doors the support will be there, it will be there in droves and it'll, well hopefully it gets you to a place of feeling better about yourself, knowing that you're supported, knowing that you've got those champions in your life. And then to obviously help you make the best decisions about what those next steps might be.

What, whatever that is.

Jess: Absolutely and I think it is so good to hear you say David, like, being able to open up to a stranger, that's still reaching out for support and it's really about recognizing who in your support network is your safe person. It may not be a partner. It may not be, you know, your brother or your sister or whoever, but having that support and knowing where to go for that support.

So, for you David, what have you found has been the best, strategy or tip that you've had in managing your mental health and getting through all of this?

Was there something that really stood out as being, the right thing for you?

David: Yeah, I've sort of, I haven't taken what the common, you know, psychology route these days with clinical psychologists that have strategies and things like that. I tried that early on but when I sort of shared my experiences, all that was coming back was, oh, you feel like that. Well, this is what you can do. And that didn't work for me. So, I've gone to more of a, probably an analytical type of approach where I'm meeting my therapist each week and discuss what's going on. He doesn't tell me what to do. It's sort of discovering what's going on for you and where these are coming from and that makes you conscious of how you're dealing with things. And I think one of the benefits from that is with my recent relapse that I was truthful with my son and said to him, you know, I've had this relapse and there's new lesion and I'm going through this process, I've got to choose a medication and things like that. And he just turned around and said well, thank you for being honest with me and not hiding anything. And I think previously I would have just hidden that it would have stayed inside. And yeah, so I think that's a key with the approach that I've sort of taken.

Jess: Yeah, it's funny how, perceptive kids are, no matter the age, they're very perceptive of things.

And what about you, Andrew?

Andrew: I've always been sort of fairly adept at communicating. And you know, after a period of time, not necessarily straight away but you know after that period of time when I, I felt like I understood what the next period of time was going to look like for me not long after diagnosis I certainly felt better about communicating it with people. And especially the right people as well.

And I think another thing I tapped into fairly quickly as well, I started thinking about, well, what if I don't do these things? What if I don't go and see the GP? What if I don't talk to my management at work. What if I don't include my friends into these conversations and let them know how I'm feeling, and I think that that's actually really worked for me. I guess in time you learn, especially from an MS perspective, you're a little bit more in tune with what it is that your body's saying and what might be MS related and what might not be. But, I think, time has given me that, leverage, if you like, to be able to understand what is it that I need to investigate further or what can maybe, be left for another day or something like that.

David: Yeah. I think it's also about using the resources that are available.

And in some ways, I feel lucky that it's MS with the amount of support that's around there. I didn't know even when getting diagnosed it was sort of even through my chiropractor mentioned that there's MS employment and because she'd seen someone else through that. And then that snowballs and you get on to other services and then you meet other people that are involved, and you talk about everything that's available. And that's s where it's sort of been great the amount of support that's available through MS Plus is just unbelievable and that's helped, get me over certain hurdles in life and will continue to look after me and going back, it's about having the right team and the people around you that like Andrew said, they're champing for you and, keep you driving you forward.

Jess: Absolutely. And so, if you both, looking back at your journeys and the things that you've experienced and the supports that have and haven't worked for you, what would be your one tip or bit of advice for other men, who are either living with MS or have just been diagnosed to help live well with MS?

Andrew: I often say to people, give yourself time and that could be anything like, time to adjust to the new you as I've talked about. Time to accept what the future might look like for you. But again, that doesn't necessarily come with any negative connotations.

Give yourself time to start accepting and changing what you can, but also, that also means accepting or acknowledging what you can't change. I think David mentioned it before, I mean, one of the things that I did hear about when I was diagnosed is that everyone's journey is going to be different. So, in my own mind I was sort of thinking, well, okay, there's no point jumping on Dr. Google or things like that, because if I'm going to be different to everyone else, what's the point of comparing me to everyone else?

David: Yeah, I think for me, it's about listening to your body and where you're at, at any point of time. And I know like at times that I'm feeling down and sometimes the old me sort of comes out where I'll push through something and like at EP or whatever I'll increase the weights or something like because I feel like I'm not working hard enough and I'm sort of competitive and but then sort of pay for it later on. And sometimes you've got to listen to your body and hear what it's telling you. It's not that you're not doing things hard enough or whatever. It's about that's where you are at that stage. You need to work out what you can do to rebound from that and if that's rest or whatever it is that you actually do it instead of just pushing through and thinking that it's just going to get better.

Jess: Absolutely. I think that's great, and you know, considering men's health week and things like that, it really is about men taking time for themselves as well, away from the stress of jobs, families, and things like that, and really prioritizing your health, but also your mental health, like mental health is healthcare. And it is equally as important as someone's physical health. So, I just thank you both so much for sharing your stories because there are deeply personal things that you've shared, and I really think that it's going to benefit a lot of people. Even partners, you know, partners hearing, maybe that's something that the male in my life that has MS is experiencing. So, thank you both again for your time. It's been so great hearing from you.

David: Thanks for having us.

Andrew: You're welcome.

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